Dean's World! Dean's World! Party time! Excellent!
I don't know what makes me think I can contribute anything to the kinds of discussions that take place over at Dean's World, but I've jumped in on a couple things, the latest being a discussion of Gay Christians. Dean wonders why most Christians seem to be more accepting of gay people than gay people are of Christians. After many many comments and a few ruffled feathers, this is the comment I finally made (trying my best to stick to Dean's original question and stay out of the particulars of church history):
Dean, I'm curious to know how your gay friends' hate for Christians manifests itself. Is it just comments made in conversation? Does it show in any particular behaviors?
In my experience, gay people's dislike of Christians is a gut-level reaction to a large organized force that puts forth the very public message that they don't like who you are. And they don't just say this, they attempt to use it as justification for denying gay people some legal rights that they ought to be entitled to and for whatever other related legislation there may be.
Straight people don't generally get that sort of institutional pressure. You'll see large groups of organized gay people, but they're intent is to gain legal rights and social acceptance for themselves, not to prevent it for others.
In my opinion, that "love the sinner hate the sin" message feels a little like CYA for something that they just find distasteful. I'm not saying that's what it is. I'm saying that's what it feels like. Christians (as a group, to distinguish from individuals and to distinguish from just the Catholic church) also give the impression that It's "less okay" to sin if you're a gay person sodomizing or fornicating than if you're a straight person sodomizing or fornicating.
If anyone can explain to me why sex for purposes other than procreation is wrong - without saying "because the Bible says so" - please do. I guess my failure to accept the "love the sinner hate the sin" argument in this case is because I can't see how "acting gay" is a sin.
So if there are so many Christian people who don't have a problem with and are even friendly toward gay people, then they either don't agree with the church where homosexuality is concerned, or they do a good job of keeping their mouths shut about the aspects of their gay friends' lives that they don't like (so the fact that they have sex). The latter still indicates a lack of acceptance of who you are as a gay person.
At 5:30 a.m., I'm not sure if I'm making a whole lot of sense. I can't help but think some folks sort of missed the point, or just didn't address the point Dean was trying make. I also confess to being one of those people who (usually) automatically tunes out when folks start quoting the bible, so if you try to justify your position by saying "because the bible says so" then I will never accept your argument. This doesn't mean we can't be friends, it just means I think that you didn't think too hard about why you believe what you do (i.e. you can't come up with anything else?)
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this is one of my main issues with practicing christians. so, jesus says when you divorce, if you remarry, you're committing adultery, but somehow that's still not as bad a sin as homosexuality? how does that make sense? divorcees are usually welcome in church, but i've RARELY met christians who would be cool having gay parishoners.
i just hate people. "let he who is without sin cast the first stone," you know? i like when people are selective about the bible parts they use. hey asshole, remember the "judge not, lest ye be judged" part? yeah, that's what i thought.
Even people's justification from the bible varies. Add to that the fact that there really are relatively few people who adhere to that "sex only for procreation and inside of marriage" bit. I almost always get the vibe that what people say and what they do don't match when it comes to matters like this.
I just find it very very disturbing that the rightest-wing Christians think a lot more about anal sex than I do. A lot more. I don't even like anal sex.
I'm all, "Draw your own conclusions."
I just find it very very disturbing that the rightest-wing Christians think a lot more about anal sex than I do. A lot more. I don't even like anal sex.
I'm all, "Draw your own conclusions."
Heh.
I'm planning a followup based exactly on your questions, Erica. Probably Wednesday or Thursday. I'll also be posting something by Charlie, a gay atheist who's got some Christian friends.
And I'm gonna make a rule like I did on the women in combat thing: only Christians and gay people allowed to post responses (and yeah you can respond if you're both). Just to let the two groups alone have it out. Except any fucktards who say "christians are all evil repressive rightwing wackos" will just get banned, and any fucktards who say "the sodomites will all burn in hell" will all get banned. Then we're just gonna see what we see after that.
Then mebbe a couple days later a followup where ANYONE can participate. [grin]
S'gonna be fun, and it wouldn't be the same without you. Stay tuned. Same bat-time, same bat-channel.
Gays and Christians: a dialogue
http://www.deanesmay.com/archives/001439.html